Market Leader’s Podcast Episode 81: “Unleashing Excellence: Revolutionizing the Client Experience in Legal and Professional Services” with Mark Hunter

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David Ackert

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David Ackert

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David Ackert

Hello and welcome back to the Market Leaders Podcast. I’m David Ackert, and today my guest is Lisa Vicine, the CMO of AGG. Lisa, welcome to the show.

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Lisa Vicine

Thanks, David. Thank you for having me today.

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David Ackert

So we’re going to talk about recruiting, developing and retaining and effective marketing and business development team. But before we dove into that, I love to learn a little bit more about you. Tell us about your background and the firm.

00:02:36:25 – 00:03:07:21

Lisa Vicine

So currently I’m the chief marketing officer for Arnall Golden Gregory. Oversee the firm’s business development, communications, branding and marketing technology initiatives. I have 30 years of experience in professional services, marketing, including nearly 20 in legal marketing. And so at AGG, I work with a team to help facilitate collaboration across our attorneys. Our firm’s industry teams are practices, and we also are responsible for helping distribute the firm’s content across all of our external channels.

00:03:08:00 – 00:03:12:27

Lisa Vicine

And I’m also part of the firm’s leadership team that oversees the firmwide administrative functions.

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David Ackert

Now, you recently rebuilt the foundation of your department at AGG. Tell us why you did that.

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Lisa Vicine

That’s correct. So a couple of years ago at AGG, I was in my third year here at the firm and I had a really good feel at that point for the work flow that was coming in and out of the department. So I would say our marketing team has undergone an evolution over the course of the last couple of years.

00:03:38:09 – 00:04:05:03

Lisa Vicine

And as I analyzed that workflow coming in and out of the department, I became much more familiar with where our attorneys were prioritizing their marketing and business development goals. And so at that point, it really enabled me to assess the roles and responsibilities of the folks we had on the team. From the standpoint of are we aligning the services and the talent that we have in the firm with where our attorneys need the most support?

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Lisa Vicine

So really drawing from that knowledge and analysis, I took a look at the marketing team. I analyzed the roles that we had, the responsibilities, the talent. And based on that analysis, it really occurred to me that our team is primarily responsible for two tracks, and I split the team into a market communications track and a business development track.

00:04:27:24 – 00:04:56:13

Lisa Vicine

And I have folks within the department that are aligned under each track. But of course, you know, there is cross collaboration on a regular basis, but it really was critical for me, David, to be able to have a team that was structured in the right way so we could start to build a really strong and solid foundation, one that I anticipated we could build on, to then take our work product and the level of support we provide to the attorneys on a much higher level.

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Lisa Vicine

So it was really about getting some early wins, get grabbing that low hanging fruit, being seen as a well-run team, a quality work product from this team in order to really demonstrate to the attorneys. And there is more that we can do because we’re drawing on the successes that we have had through the projects we’ve engaged in.

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David Ackert

You know, the split between marketing and business development is not an uncommon one, but it’s interesting to get a feel for In the trenches. What were you seeing specifically that lawyers were looking for in terms of support in one way or the other?

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Lisa Vicine

It ran the gamut. But when I streamlined the workflow coming in and to one of the two tracks, there was a lot of attorneys that were interested in writing. They didn’t always necessarily know the outlet. They were interested in speaking again, didn’t always understand the outlet or where they should be speaking. So we really worked to, for instances, particularly in support of our industry team’s work, to really have an understanding of the key organizations, the key industries where our attorneys could be spotlighted through a thought leadership position as subject matter experts within that industry within that conference.

00:06:08:08 – 00:06:29:13

Lisa Vicine

And then on the flip side, on the business development side, we were seeing, although not often pitch and proposal requests coming into the department, traditionally the team had been really just providing off the shelf materials, you know, content that was on the website would be downloaded into a pitch book and it would be emailed off to an attorney.

00:06:29:27 – 00:07:00:23

Lisa Vicine

We really worked to raise the bar on that, which was, you know, setting, planning meetings better, understanding what the client was interested in, in receiving. We were to customize and tailor our off the shelf materials and were and really ask questions of the attorneys that they hadn’t necessarily been asked before. And so we really were trying to up our game a little bit, just showing that we were more of a partner for them as opposed to just somebody that was executing on their exact request that came through the door.

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David Ackert

Yeah, that makes good sense. How do you protect your department from getting bogged down in administrative work?

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Lisa Vicine

That’s a great question. I really do think the best way to determine whether a task or project or initiative is really rooted for marketing and business development is to really have an understanding of what does this work entail, what are we trying to accomplish, what are the attorneys trying to achieve? And then ultimately, if it doesn’t fit within the scope of the marketing and business development team, then we need to find a new home for it.

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Lisa Vicine

I’m sure many of your listeners will remember the early days of legal marketing and especially the development of marketing teams, and often at the time I remember those times well, you know, marketing the marketing department served as a catchall for a lot of work. Some of that was the attorneys just didn’t know who else to go to. And so they would ping the marketing folks.

00:07:52:26 – 00:08:18:16

Lisa Vicine

And, you know, we’re all all trying to raise our profile with the attorneys. We want to do a good job. We want them to trust us. So we would often take on that work. And then it sort of set it stayed with the marketing team. So I really am very conscious that if our team is interested in raising the bar in the work that we’re doing, it means we’re going to have to get engaged in more strategic projects that require thinking time, that required planning time.

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Lisa Vicine

It’s not it’s less task focused and it’s more strategic focused. And so we really cannot be inundated with administrative tasks that do belong elsewhere. So I’ll give you an example of one of those here at the firm. We have every attorney in the firm has a budget, every practice has a budget, and every industry team has a budget.

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Lisa Vicine

And so we have a lot of budgets that are the marketing department is managing. We are also on a daily basis approving expense reimbursements for the attorneys. And it just becomes so voluminous. You know, think about nearly 200 budgets and expenses that are being hit on those budgets at any time, any point, any day. It really was saddling almost one and a half members of the marketing department just to be processing expenses and to be managing the attorney budgets and, you know, remaining balances.

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Lisa Vicine

So I really worked to identify another resource for that. And for me, it felt like instead of centralizing all of that through the marketing team, it made the most sense to descend, realize that and put the responsibility of expense tracking and budget management back on the legal assistance. And so I really worked with our director, our i.t folks because there was so much work that was needed to be configured in order to shift the project on the legal assistance and came up with a process where the legal assistance were now the one were now the ones that were tasked with applying expenses to attorney budgets at the same time they were submitting them for reimbursement.

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Lisa Vicine

And so I can tell you that the volume that has come off of the marketing team has really enabled us to free up. And we have now half a person as opposed to one and a half folks that have sort of a minimal role in that process. And it really belongs with the right folks at this point.

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David Ackert

The lawyers really need the trains to be running on time, right, so that they are not burdened with administrative work that would detract from their ability to build. And so obviously, as you said, marketing is right there. They get the first call. And as you point out, the marketing department wants to raise their profile with the lawyers and demonstrate that they could be helpful and that they can make an impact.

00:10:34:16 – 00:10:59:01

David Ackert

And so they take it on. And before long, they end up being just another administrative function without ever having the opportunity to demonstrate what they can do from a strategic perspective, how they can really help grow the firm and amplify the business development intentions and objectives that are in the minds of the lawyers. And so I think it’s so smart.

00:10:59:01 – 00:11:24:07

David Ackert

What you’ve done here is make sure that that administrative work is, you know, is getting accomplished, but it’s allocated to the appropriate people so that marketing can can focus on producing strategic outcomes. I wonder, what does that look like in your department? Do you have regular strategy meetings? Do you you said you sit on the executive team with with other sort of C-suite executives at the firm.

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David Ackert

I’m just curious what’s different now that you’ve moved that administrative work aside such that law firm leadership can see the difference?

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Lisa Vicine

Yeah, I mean, there’s there’s a number of things there’s time it takes for reimbursements to go through is, is much quicker than it had been the amount of returns that the marketing team would have to send back because it didn’t have the right either the receives or didn’t have the right justification to be put through as an expense.

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Lisa Vicine

Those have been significantly reduced the number of times the attorneys have had to get engaged to try to clear up an expense reimbursement and why it was either delayed or not being put through in a timely manner has been cut down significantly. But one thing I didn’t mention when I was describing the program earlier that I probably should have is, you know, it’s a very delicate balance between finding the right, for lack of a better word, home for function like that and making it seem like the department is not just pushing work off to other.

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Lisa Vicine

Right. And so when I was building the business case and we had training that we developed a pilot program with a certain number of legal assistance just to get them to that. The program, you know, I really believed and I communicated to the legal assistance that this was going to help to empower them, because marketing and business development is driven at the attorney level by, in a certain sense, their budgets.

00:12:49:23 – 00:13:09:09

Lisa Vicine

And so if the legal assistance could be empowered to have conversations with their attorneys about what else, what other activities do they have coming up for the year? Where have they had some pockets of budgeted line items that maybe didn’t hit earlier in the year, that they could repurpose to some other activity that maybe a client asked them to engage in?

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Lisa Vicine

You know, the more that the attorneys can can turn to their legal assistance for that type of intelligence and that type of conversation is just enabling the legal assistance to add more value to the firm. And it really has taken a couple of years to make sure that it’s you know, the trains are running on time and the track is still there, but we sort of have it on autopilot at this point.

00:13:35:04 – 00:13:48:11

Lisa Vicine

And I do get a lot of positive feedback at this point from the legal assistance that it is another element that they’re able to bring to the attorneys in terms of the support they’re providing.

00:13:48:11 – 00:13:59:21

David Ackert

That the lawyers are able to attend conferences and write and participate in proposals more easily and more frequently. And that, of course, has an impact on their books of business ultimately.

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Lisa Vicine

Absolutely. Absolutely.

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David Ackert

So the key to making all of this work is having an effective team. What in your mind, are the keys to recruiting, developing and retaining that team?

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Lisa Vicine

I think some of that draws back to what I was describing earlier about the evolution of the marketing team I mentioned. It’s sort of been two years that we’ve evolved and I would say during that to your timeline, it really forced me, as I mentioned earlier, to make sure that our internal structure was the right one for this firm, that it was responsive to what we were hearing and receiving in terms of work input from the attorneys.

00:14:44:25 – 00:15:08:07

Lisa Vicine

But it also made me look externally. And so I was looking at the way other marketing teams were structuring their teams. I did a lot of research in industry salary surveys just to better understand market rates and comp adjustments and bonuses. And, you know, attorney to staff ratio, I was looking at geographies, I was looking at sizes of law firms.

00:15:08:29 – 00:15:39:04

Lisa Vicine

And I really think that that exercise really helped equip me with a really think fair. But yet aspirational job prospects for folks on the team. So for instance, what that means is taking all of that intel into account. I was developing job positions that again, yes, were responsive to what we were seeing and needing to work with the attorneys on, but also was very conscious about where does this position where can this position grow?

00:15:39:24 – 00:16:09:00

Lisa Vicine

We knew that we you know, the person that we get into the firm we know we want, we’re making an investment in them. So we’ve we’ve got to try to identify areas of opportunity and growth for them. So conscious of building that type of element into the job specs and again based on the research for compensation and bonus, was able to offer competitive compensation benefits, flexible schedule, as you know, post-COVID, pre-COVID and post-COVID.

00:16:09:00 – 00:16:35:08

Lisa Vicine

We were looking to find ways that we could be more flexible with work schedules working from home. And I think all of that has helped us to recruit people coming in. We’ve had candidates that we have interviewed who their sole, you know, interest was, is there a flexible work schedule at AG? And so we have to sort of understand what the market is seeking, what the candidates are requesting and be responsive to that.

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Lisa Vicine

The other element I guess I could build into this response is during the recruiting process, you know, you have candidates that we are bringing in identify a fit with the firm. Obviously, we anticipate they have the level of skills. And traditionally I had been looking for folks that had either law firm experience or professional services experience that had been sort of top of my list.

00:16:59:06 – 00:17:31:23

Lisa Vicine

But the time that we were recruiting for some positions, the market was tight. We weren’t seeing a lot of candidates come through the door, so we were a little bit more flexible in interviewing folks that maybe didn’t check all the boxes or maybe didn’t check that even the majority of the boxes. But we had a candidate come in who really didn’t have the level of depth and experience we were looking for, but had such energy, had such curiosity, portrayed this sentiment that quick learner asks questions would work hard to really ramp up quickly.

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Lisa Vicine

And and we ended up hiring her and she has been a tremendous asset to the team. So I think it’s having a job spec that really is representative of what we need this person to do. But having an open mind, I guess you could say too, identifying when you have a candidate in front of you who may not check all the boxes, look at them maybe through a different lens, and one that is maybe a better fit for the culture of the firm would interact well with other team members and can truly add value and ramp up quickly because of their interest and their energy.

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Lisa Vicine

In the maybe touching on retention briefly, it’s an, I think an ongoing work in progress. When you have a team, whether it’s a small team or a large team, you know, the team dynamic is such that it is a sort of a constant evolving thing. At the end of the day, I always tell my team in others, you know, when we are chatting in the industry about retention for teams, I do believe that we do need to like each other.

00:18:32:22 – 00:18:55:02

Lisa Vicine

I do feel that there is a strong sentiment there. You’ll want to work with people that you like. And so I do think that finding outlets and ways for team members to be able to engage socially, team building, strategic meetings, I think all of that helps folks feel, you know, a sense of fit within the department and also within the firm.

00:18:55:29 – 00:19:12:25

Lisa Vicine

I could certainly do a better job of some of that, but I think my team knows that, you know, I have good intentions there and are continuing to ramp up and find ways that we can engage beyond just the day to day work, that we’re all working on together.

00:19:13:24 – 00:19:41:18

David Ackert

I want to pull out a couple of things that you just said and spotlight them, because I think there were some really great points in there. One is that I don’t know what the studies may show, but my guess would be that most people who leave their firm for another firm do so either because of culture or a sense that, you know, they don’t feel connected to their colleagues or they’re their teammates or it’s career trajectory.

00:19:41:18 – 00:20:04:04

David Ackert

They feel like they’re sort of stuck and they just can’t move to the next level. And both of those can be difficult to manage. Certainly since the pandemic, creating this sense of cohesion when people are either working remotely or they’re spread out across the country or, you know, whatever the various barriers may be, that’s one obstacle, and the other is marketing.

00:20:04:04 – 00:20:25:24

David Ackert

But departments are only so large. I mean, how many career trajectories really can you authentically put in front of someone when they’re going to move from a specialist to a manager to senior manager to director, and then eventually they’ve got your job, right? I mean, there just aren’t that many sort of you know, movements to the right or left that are available in that kind of a structure.

00:20:25:24 – 00:20:54:22

David Ackert

So taking a thoughtful approach like you have is really key to ensuring that people are clear on where they’re headed. So often when I speak to marketing leaders, they are prioritizing law firm experience and we understand why, right? This is a weird industry and we’re working with a very unique kind of person and the things that work in another industry don’t really apply to legal.

00:20:54:22 – 00:21:24:22

David Ackert

So hiring someone who has law firm experience certainly is a boon. But I love what you said about really looking for those qualities. Somebody who has the right energy, somebody who’s bringing the level of enthusiasm, you know, they can learn our industry. But that level of energy or enthusiasm typically is more nature than nurture. And so hiring with that in the foreground, I think, really opens up the opportunities to bring in the right candidates and build the right team.

00:21:26:04 – 00:21:59:00

Lisa Vicine

Well, absolutely. I do believe that energy at times and curiosity and willingness to learn can trump someone that has the exact experience you’re looking for because they may not have the right personality or or fit for the team. So I don’t know that we don’t want to make a blanket statement, but, you know, we should always be paying attention to other qualities that may be, you know, maybe the soft touches that aren’t, you know, on paper that we have in the job stack and just be mindful that there could be a terrific candidate out there that, again, doesn’t check many of the boxes.

00:21:59:12 – 00:22:19:13

Lisa Vicine

This way you’re not boxing yourself in to only a certain candidate pool. The other thing I wanted to mention, Dave, you’re right. With, you know, movement, it is difficult, obviously, when you have a department that is more structured, it has tiers of roles. It is more difficult to move into, you know, promotion and get promoted to the next title.

00:22:20:02 – 00:22:45:26

Lisa Vicine

But there are ways I feel that those folks can still continue to grow and learn within the firm. And that is by raising their profile outside of the marketing department. One of the things I’ve work to do is to get our marketing department team members engaged in some firm committees. So, for instance, we have staff that’s on our DTI committee, we have staff on our community engagement committee, we have staff on our pro-bono committee.

00:22:45:26 – 00:23:08:08

Lisa Vicine

And by staff I mean marketing department members that we have asked the chairs and and said, is there a willingness to have a marketing team member engaged? We can help on a number of different levels, but at a minimum it will help us better understand what this committee is working to accomplish, what you have accomplished, and be able to communicate that to the right channels.

00:23:08:08 – 00:23:29:03

Lisa Vicine

And so, you know, again, I think thinking beyond just the immediate structure, looking at ways that folks on your team can add additional value in the firm is something to to just open your eyes, open your mind to what are other ways that they can contribute that will be meaningful to them outside of just their day to day function within the department?

00:23:30:05 – 00:23:44:15

David Ackert

That is a really good point. It doesn’t come down strictly to title. It really comes down to what is that employee’s experience in at your firm? And a lot of that is shaped by the kinds of committees and discussions that they get engaged in.

00:23:45:18 – 00:24:07:27

Lisa Vicine

Absolutely. And maybe one other point is professional development. I do believe very strongly that each each of us has a duty, especially managers, enough to serve as a mentor and a coach to the folks that we engage with that are on our teams that report into us. I think every engagement is a chance to teach and for them to learn.

00:24:08:10 – 00:24:32:12

Lisa Vicine

I think there’s more learning to be made when there are mistakes and errors to correct. I think those are terrific times when, as managers, we can either make a conscious choice to discipline them again, for lack of a better word, or find a way to turn that into a teaching and coachable moment. We do have a budget, thankfully, and I thank the firm for this.

00:24:32:12 – 00:24:58:18

Lisa Vicine

Their willingness to invest in the marketing and B team where every team member has an LMA membership and I encourage everyone on the team to build out there their own peer advisory group based on other LMA members and you know, just again, demonstrating to them, does it matter what level they’re at that the firm is investing in them and you know, we would like them to take advantage of those those opportunities when they can.

00:24:59:28 – 00:25:18:05

David Ackert

So at least I’m curious, you know, folks are going to be listening to this episode and some of them may be struggling with some of the things that you’ve touched on, especially as it relates to recruiting, developing and retaining an effective team. Do you have any final thoughts or nuggets for them to think about as we wrap up?

00:25:19:22 – 00:25:55:29

Lisa Vicine

David, as you were asking me that question, the word that popped into my mind is people, we’re all people. Let’s treat each other as people. And I really do feel that building strong and solid relationships with your team members is critical. You know, I see my folks beyond just being employees of the firm and members of my team, I see them as everyday folks that are supporting their families and are taking on responsibilities and are committed to the growth of the firm.

00:25:55:29 – 00:26:27:04

Lisa Vicine

And I really do think that if we can engage at that sort of human level, then I think that we can accomplish anything. And I know that’s a broad statement, but, you know, problems are maybe not so much big problems because we know that we can engage in dialog with each other. That is not adversarial. You know, we are all working together to find a common goal in and I just would encourage our leaders that are listening to really invest that time.

00:26:27:04 – 00:26:51:06

Lisa Vicine

And they may be I’m not I don’t mean to suggest we’re not invest in that time to get to know your folks on a personal level. You know, if you’re not having one on ones with your junior coordinators and your and your assistants, set some time to have those one on ones, because it is important that every member of the team knows that they have access to you as the leader.

00:26:51:18 – 00:27:23:03

Lisa Vicine

They have access to your calendar. They have, you know, you have a willingness to take time out of your day because they’re important. And I just think it’s critical for every team member to know that they are invested in in that they’re believed in and that their team leader is supportive of them. I have a tendency to feel that they will be more satisfied in their job at the firm and have even greater contributions to the firm generally.

00:27:23:03 – 00:27:50:09

David Ackert

Well said. You know, one encouragement that maybe we can leave folks with is, as you said, if you don’t have one on one check in calls, I definitely look to implement that. And another might be take a moment, think about the one person on your team this week who is probably really at overwhelmed either because they got buried with that RFP or there’s this one project that’s just, you know, become a runaway or has gone way beyond scope.

00:27:50:21 – 00:28:07:26

David Ackert

And maybe that’s the person that you take a moment to reach out to and let them know that you were thinking about them. And is there any additional support that you can give them. But, you know, at the very least, just that they’re on your radar that’s engaging on a human level, as you say. Listen, I think that it would be well received.

00:28:09:20 – 00:28:12:12

Lisa Vicine

Yeah, absolutely. Could not agree with that more.

00:28:13:26 – 00:28:41:19

David Ackert

Well, this has been a pleasure. I so appreciate you sharing the work that you’ve done at AG to help streamline in your department and put the right people in place, make sure that they’re getting the support that they need and the attention that they need to thrive. I also really appreciate your humility. I mean, on more than one occasion today, you’ve acknowledged, look, I may not be perfect at this or in other ways where I could improve, but this is what I’m shooting for.

00:28:41:19 – 00:28:57:08

David Ackert

This is what I’m trying to build. You know, we’re all human. Talk about engaging on a human level. We’re all we’re all fallible in some way or another, and we’re all just doing our best in the face of it all. And I just really appreciate you sharing your thoughts and your experiences with us today.

00:28:58:01 – 00:29:12:09

Lisa Vicine

Well, thank you so much for having me. Yes, I am definitely a work in progress. I continue to learn and I learn from my folks and I learn from industry folks. And so it’s been wonderful to be a part of this today. And I appreciate you inviting me to join the podcast.

00:29:13:04 – 00:29:15:23

David Ackert

You bet. Thanks for giving us an opportunity to learn from you.

00:29:16:23 – 00:29:17:23

Lisa Vicine

All right. Thank you so much.

00:29:18:17 – 00:29:36:22

David Ackert

Today’s episode was brought to you by PipelinePlus. We solve business development problems for professionals around the world. Visit pipelineplus.com. To learn more about our technology and coaching solutions.